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Nearly 30 years ago somebody put a tarot deck in Barbara's hands and she's held on tight ever since. That fortuitous meeting has blossomed into a full and fascinating journey. Barbara has written books, designed decks, and taught tarot all over the world in addition to managing Llewellyn's Tarot & Divination line.
Join the Aquarean+ for live readings and community!
You may be interested in
Nearly 30 years ago somebody put a tarot deck in Barbara's hands and she's held on tight ever since. That fortuitous meeting has blossomed into a full and fascinating journey. Barbara has written books, designed decks, and taught tarot all over the world in addition to managing Llewellyn's Tarot & Divination line.
The psychological approach really pushed a big wedge between what modern Tarot readers considered themselves and what fortune tellers were, which we see today. People are like, okay, we spent 20 years believing the secret and thinking we can do whatever we want, and every Tarot reading should say, yes, you should make your hobby your job, and you will be very abundantly successful. We did that for 20 years, and it proved not to be true. So now here we are having to adjust our perceptions to incorporate reality. And so the people who want to call themselves fortune tellers and that is what they are, want to come back and be able to call themselves that. And they don't understand why the older people in the community, like my age and older are like, don't call yourself a fortune teller because we had such a bad time back then. 2.7s
U2
Hello, everybody, and welcome to episode number 39. I can't believe it's been almost a year since I started this podcast, and I hope you all are getting exactly what you need from it. And I'm really excited and happy to announce that more people have signed up to the Aquarium Plus. So that means that I'll soon be able to start Tarot classes, practice rooms for Tarot readings, new and full moon gatherings, and so much more. So this August 1, I will be performing monthly Zodiac readings for Aquarium Plus subscribers through the App Clubhouse, and I will be giving free month ahead readings for up to 25 people. And these will be short five to seven minute readings about what will happen in the month of August for you. And don't worry if you can't make it, there will be a replay for all of the monthly Zodiac readings. So all of this is now exclusive to Aquarian Plus subscribers, but it's only $5 a month to subscribe vibe Aquarium Plus subscribers. I will be sending you an email on August 1, so you can easily join me. And to anybody who's been thinking about signing up, this might be the time that you want to sign up. So let's get on with the episode. 3.3s
U1
You. 2s Nearly 30 years ago, somebody put a tarot deck in Barbara's hands and she's held on tight ever since. That fortuitous meeting has blossomed into a full and fascinating journey.
U2
Barbara has written books, designed decks, and taught tarot all over the world, in addition to managing Llewellyn's tarot and divination line. 12s Hello, Barbara, and welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here.
U1
Oh, Vanessa, thank you for the invitation. I'm really looking forward to our conversation.
U2
As am I. Spreads are the least talked about topic in tarot, and they're probably the thing that most people want to figure out how to create for themselves or how to spot good ones that they can use. So this is going to be a very informative conversation. But before we get into spreads, I'm curious how you found your way to tarot. What was the journey for
U1
you? I can absolutely tell that story. I was in college and I was in NEP, deep in a liberal arts education, specifically an interdisciplinary, so they were super focused on cross contaminating all your subject matter. So I was primed for tarot the first time when I was at a party and someone put a deck in my hands and it was almost like this ritual. She brought out this little carved box and she opens the box and unwraps the silk cloth and brings out these cards, and we're all like, it was a very appropriate, very wonderful experience. And then I looked at them, didn't know anything about them, but I did know that I was holding the sum of all human knowledge in my hands. I had all that humanities background, the art history, the literature, the philosophy, the mythology, all of it. And it all just like zinged when I held the cards. So I'm like, okay, so this is something I can use to tie together all the things I love about everything. 1.3s And it's been true.
U2
That's a great mix of education and yeah, that's all perfect for Tarot. So I bet it gave you a lot of different lenses to look through when you were working with the cards. So what was your favorite lens? Was it mythology, was it literature? Or did everything show up at once?
U1
That's a great question. My favorite way to, well, combination at the time this was back in the psychological approach was the way that everyone did it because we were fighting against these stereotypes from the numbers and whatnot. So during that time we were really distancing ourselves from anything woo woo and strange. We're like don't dress up, don't wear purple, 1.1s don't have crystals out, be a business person. When you do a reading, normalize it. And so the psychological approach was very, very common and it was very natural for me to take that approach, especially then as over the last like 30 or almost 30 years, other things get pulled into it. More spirituality rather than psychology, although psychology will always be a part of it ritual. I did a lot of shamanic studies, so that gets pulled into it. And mythology. The idea of living a myth or where you are in your mythos are lenses that I really enjoy using for the Tarot. Bottom line though, a Tarot reading has to be useful. So if it's like too heady and too abstract, it's not really helpful. So it kind of has to hit a lot of notes. And that's the beauty of Tarot, isn't it? I heard there's a saying, and I don't know who said it originally, but sometimes you need a plumber and sometimes you need a poet. And I think Tarot is both. Tarot can be your plumber and fix your whatever, and it also can be the poet to set you free or inspire you. What kind of lens do you like to look at Tarot through?
U2
Me? Well, first let me say it's funny. You mentioned that you all were trying to push away from the Charlatan fortune teller trope. 1.5s I don't know if I realized how prevalent it was back in the day, and still now it's an easy thing to scam people with, because as long as you're charming or you say the right things, you can easily pull almost anybody in. And a lot of people go to Tarot readers for similar reasons, like love, career, money, the future in general. So if you can kind of hit points that most people will say, yes, that's what's going on, or yes, the first letter of their name does start with an M, and then you're told you're hexed and you need a $3,000 crystal bath, then, yeah, it certainly appears to be a ruse that maybe everybody's in on. So you actually answered a question that I didn't even know I had about Tarot history and why it's so negative to read like a fortune teller instead of maybe like a spiritualist or a therapist. But to answer your question about how I read cards, I do read cards like a fortune teller. I read practically and spiritually if the reading calls for it. Like love readings can sometimes turn into spiritual readings because the person doesn't realize their role in their relationships. But if you have a practical question, I'm going to give you practical answer rather than, say, focus on who you are as a person or where you are on your spiritual path. And I so appreciate that you said the plumber or the poet, because that is how I approach it, too. It's like, what do you need? What are you here for? So I did have a hard time when I started reading Tarot because I'm psychic. First, it was like, okay, well, I'm not trying to be a stereotypical fortune teller, but a lot of people are asking me about real world things. So thank you for bringing that up. I have felt a bit shameful for approaching the cards, practically, or like a fortune teller, but I see why with the Miss Cleos and whatnot. Yeah,
U1
the 800 numbers. Miss Cleo, I forget. Dion Warwick and her Psychic Friends Network.
U2
I didn't know Dion Warwick had a Psychic
U1
Network. Oh, yeah, I'm pretty sure it was her. Oh, my gosh. Okay, if I'm wrong, Dionne, I'm so sorry, but I think it was her and her Psychic Friends Network.
U2
Oh, I believe you. I'm sure it was. But it came out that it was a scam.
U1
Yeah. No, Diane Warwick. I just double checked. 5s It was what people wanted and what people still want from a Tarot reader. But it was very huckstery. It was very, let's make as much money as we can. It was charlatan, like, even though some of the people doing that were probably doing real work, but it was just being handled so badly and people were being exploited. Tarot scholars and people who were serious about it wanted to be accepted and respected. And so, yeah, the psychological approach really pushed a big wedge between what modern Tarot readers considered themselves and what fortune tellers were, which we see today. People are like, okay, we spent 20 years believing the secret and thinking we can do whatever we want. And every Tarot reading should say, yes, you should make your hobby your job, and you will be very abundantly successful. We did that for 20 years and it proved not to be true. So now here we are having to adjust our perceptions to incorporate reality. And so the people who want to call themselves fortune tellers and that is what they are, want to come back and be able to call themselves that. And they don't understand why the older people in the community, like my age and older are like, don't call yourself a fortune teller because we had such a bad time back then. But this is a different world now, and fortune teller is not a bad word. And many people are providing that service for people who need it. There should be no stigma on that.
U2
Yes, well, thank you for that. So, there is a person I'd like to bring up, because I read in your introduction of your Tarot spread book that you had a Tarot reading from Rachel Pollock.
U1
I did. Several. Many. Many, in fact. Many. I'd love to hear about it.
U2
Well, makes you rest in peace.
U1
Yeah. I was going to say, sadly, she's no longer working amongst us that we know of. I wouldn't doubt that she is working somehow, but yeah. So rachel. Rachel. Rachel and Mary K. Greer are what the people of my generation of Tarot readers would say are the authors of modern Tarot. In case your people don't know. After Arthur Waite in the Golden Dawn, there wasn't a ton of work then. Eden Gray, if you've ever heard of Eden Gray, she owned a bookstore in the late 60s, early seventy s, and she sold Tarot cards and her customers wanted books to learn how to read the cards. The only books available were written by those Esoteric gentlemen, and they're practically unintelligible. They did not want those books. So Eden went ahead and wrote several beginner books, and those were the books that influenced Rachel and Mary. And then Rachel and Mary, in turn, kind of set the stage for all of us who came after. They brought the personal and the psychological approaches to the cards. So that's the lineage, as I understand, under. 1.4s
U2
I did not know that. That is so enlightening, actually, because it does feel like a massive jump from occult philosophy to where we are now. So that actually really clears up a lot. 1.5s
U1
I know. I actually have just been starting to make sure I try to tell that story when I have a chance because I'm not really on social media, but sometimes I peek into things just to feel like I'm so connected to the world. So I look on read it and I look on a couple of Facebook groups and I'm just looking at the questions from beginners and people's responses, and I'm like, these people don't know. They don't know things. I should tell them the things.
U2
It's so true. There's just like this big void between the writings of the occult philosophers and the modern approach. And most of us know Mary K. Greer and Rachel Pollock. If I said 78 degrees of Tarot, it'd probably ring a bell to most of you, but I didn't know that Eden Gray was like a gateway for them to express themselves through Tarot. It's interesting, they both draw a lot on occult symbolism found mainly in writer Wait. But like you said, they were able to translate it psychologically. So they're no longer just these outside forces or even everyday faded realities. They're now a way to look inward. Their approach is far more accessible to anyone where the occult approach was more insular, I feel, or closed off. And you're right about how difficult it is to read their work. The guys like Crowley and Waite, I was super influenced by Papus'book, the Tarot of the bohemians, but it took everything in me to understand what he was saying. It's almost a different language. And though I got a lot from his instructions on how to read the numbers, I can't really get any more from them, because their whole approach to Tarot was on the assumption that they were first derived from ancient Egypt, which isn't
U1
yeah. Yeah, that's pretty. So two things about that, then? Well, one is another thing I keep wanting to tell people is because people keep saying, well, what's the traditional? What's the real? What's the original? And I'm like, oh, honey, it's all made up. We all made it all up. Thank you. Yes,
U2
that's the real history of Tarot. Okay, really quick for anyone who's unfamiliar with the history of Tarot, here's an incredibly quick overview. So, playing cards came first, and they have a whole history all the way back to like, the 9th century in China. And then they evolved into playing cards. And then a deck was created around the 15 hundreds that added 22 trumps, or what we call now major arcana. And that deck was mostly used in France to play a more elaborate trick taking game called Tarot. So in the 17 hundreds, this French guy named Jablan saw the Tarot Dumar Say deck, the most widely used deck for playing the card game Tarot. And he saw it for the first time when he was asked to join in on a game of Tarot. And he was so taken by the trump cards that he declared 15 minutes after he saw them, he declared, you fools. This is an ancient Egyptian relic. It was brought to us by those we've nicked named Gypsies, and it holds all of the secrets of the world. So that's how the occult scrutiny began on false history. And if anyone wants to know more about the history of Tarot, go to the first episode. You'll learn all about it. But the fact that it's man made doesn't, in my opinion, make it any less magical or soothing. That is
U1
like the real magic right there, because you said, like, it holds all the world's knowledge. I think that's true, but all the other stuff completely made up then the other just I had an interesting experience this past year. So in the past, I've tried to read Arthur Waite as one does, and put it aside, because that's what you do. And I was referencing it for a book I'm working on now and almost 30 years of experience. Plus, I'm old enough now. I don't care what anyone thinks. And I'm reading Weight, and I'm like, oh, my God, such a misogynist, such a horrible person. Yeah. Which I think back then I was too young and too in awe. 1.1s To question it, but now I'm reading it with a questioning mind, and I'm like, Wait, a 1.2s and that's also interesting to note, too, is the esoteric phase of Golden Dawn area. It was mostly male, mostly because, I mean, Pamela Coleman Smith, obviously we know her, she was involved. Lady Frida Harris. Involved, but mostly men. Mostly privileged, rich white men, right? And one of the reasons that they're hard to understand, why their books are hard to understand is because they were writing to each other or for each other, and they had all read the same thing, so they could just reference something, shorthand it, and they knew what they were talking about. So we don't have that shorthand, so it is not that useful for us. And they
U2
were always arguing with each other. They're like, you translated this wrong. No, you translated this wrong. And Crowley spent his entire career trying to deflate Arthur Waite's success. Like, you're still referencing the same
U1
thing. You know what's interesting, too, about that history? The male dominated part is tarot in its divinatory role, is used mostly by women and consulted mostly by women. So, yeah, it was about time.
U2
Well, that's the perfect segue back to Pollock. Oh, such a 2s
U1
know. I know. The first time I met her and Mary, I was so starstruck, and I got to be friends with them. I've been to Mary's House. My wife and her almost have, like, a platonic romance going on. They're very dear friends. It's so sweet. But Rachel, in the reading, the very first time, she was coming to the Twin Cities where I live and for a conference, and she was booking readings on the side. And so I booked a reading with her. She didn't just say, what's your question? She's like, Talk to me about what you're concerned about. That's where I learned how to do that. I didn't do that before. So I just talked to her all about what was going on with me in this situation. And she was taking notes the whole time. And then at the end, she was quiet for a minute, did some scribbling, and then she showed me this piece of paper, and she's like, okay, this is the spread I'm going to use for your reading. And I was like, what? And it hit on the main points of what we had said, what I had said and what she had noted. So it was a custom made spread, right? There no bespoke. It was a bespoke spread, created right on the spot. And that was kind of the first time I realized that, oh, you can make up stuff just like it's all made up, right? And I didn't know that before. So that opened up the whole wide world of Tarot spreads. Well, and your psychic? I am absolutely not. I mean, I know everyone is to some point, and anyone can develop it and practice, and I did do it a little bit, but it's not my thing. My thing is patterns, structures, things like that. So of course, spreads are of interest to me, right, because they're basically designing the patterns that you lay your cards in. So the inner workings of spreads and why they work and how they work and how they can be used to be more helpful to a reader interest me very much from that point forward.
U2
I think it's interesting you bring up that I may have a different experience because I'm psychic, but I'd say we're kind of meeting in the middle because Tarot imagery and the spread pattern makes it easier for my mind to get out of the way for psychic information to come through. And that includes patterns in the cards as well, like seeing mainly Pentacles or mainly Majors. So I use the cards and the patterns of the spreads like a jumping off point, which makes it easier for me to do more readings in a day, because when I read from a trance state alone, I get way too tired and I'm done after two readings, and maybe someday that'll get easier for me. But until then, I love that the cards and spreads offer that psychic support. So the way that the cards are laid out, the pattern they're placed in, that has to help my mind. Let go and see what's there.
U1
I'm really glad to hear that. I've always suspected and always preached that having a good, solid foundation of structure and pattern and techniques provides a nice foundation for your intuition or your psychic abilities to feel more free and comfortable. So I'm glad to hear that that's been your experience. 1.6s
U2
Yeah, absolutely. So let's go into the spreads and what we mean by spread patterns, because I think this is where people get stumped about how they're supposed to put a spread together or which spreads are good to use. Now, I'm going to say my opinion about modern spreads. I don't really like them. The ones I find on Pinterest, the ones I find on Instagram, I'm not a big fan, obviously, I'm not talking about everybody's spread, but usually there's too many positions that have labels that back me into a corner, and the way the spread is built doesn't help me at all.
U1
That's funny that you mentioned about the spreads you see on Pinterest or whatever, because I have a friend who sometimes we're bad, we're a little caddy sometimes, but not in public. 1.6s And sometimes we do laugh at some spreads that we see.
U2
Well, now it's public because it's going to be out on a podcast, but it's true. And I don't mean to bash anybody's spreads, and I'm sure you don't either, but beginner Tarot readers have a hard time reading their own cards because the spreads they find don't really make sense a lot of the time. And if we're supposed to read the symbolism and Tarot cards together, meaning we're supposed to note if there's a majority of a particular suit or majority of majors, or if we see a lot of court cards, then doesn't it make reading Tarot harder when the spread has no visual flow and its positions box each card in? Is that fair to say?
U1
I think so. And you say you're so kind and professional and you're like, I'm not here to bash a spread. I'm sorry. 1s No, I would critique a spread and I encourage everybody to critique a spread before they use it for real. Don't call it bashing because bashing is just, I don't know, being mindless and hateful and we're not that.
U2
Yeah, no, that's true. I'm not criticizing for no reason. I want Tarot readers who feel lost to know that sometimes it's not them. You have to sift through a lot of filler to find something worth using.
U1
Which is different. Which is different. And also we can always office that with your mileage may vary. Different things work for different people. So. 1.3s You know, but just to say all spreads are equal and good is not, in my opinion, true. Obviously I wrote a book on it.
U2
Yeah. And I think criticism really is important too, because that's how we help legitimize and perfect this art. And like you said about the book The Secret, and everything a Tarot reader says is supposed to be positive and predict, only happiness. That really damaged our reputation for being truth tellers. So by critiquing and knowing what makes a good spread and what doesn't is essential to ensure a proper Tarot reading. And most of the Tarot spreads I've seen are confusing because the spreads use an irrelevant or misrepresented design. And by design, I mean the spread shape after you've laid all the cards out, what it looks like, and then the labels of each position. A lot of times they have like a whole question 1.3s and it usually boxes a card in questions like, what do I need to know about my relationship? That would be one position. And will my career take off this year? That's one position. And I think a lot of these spreads may work well with Oracle cards instead, because Oracle cards usually have an answer written on them. 1.2s
U1
Yeah, I think you might be right there. That would be a better use for them, perhaps, but yeah, a lot of the spreads feel like their themes are novelty
U2
spreads. That is the perfect word for them. They are novelty spreads. Yes, exactly. I mean,
U1
novelty items are fun and amusing and clever, but they're not always going to be a poet or a plumber. They're going to just be a fun thing that gets tossed aside when you're done with it. A spread should make your job as a reader easier, not harder. When I was a working reader, I only used a handful 1.1s on the regular spreads, and then the rest, of course, I would make up to suit the actual question or situation. 1.3s
U2
Yeah, Rachel opened that up for you. Okay. So now let's talk about how to craft or spot a good spread. And what I took from your book was that good spreads use the way our mind naturally interprets lines and movement. And what inspired you to see spreads in this way? 1.7s
U1
I kind of based my information that I used on the rules of graphic design. My wife graphic designer, so I was exposed to that a lot. Artists are trained to do things in certain ways, have certain hierarchies, and so you want to have like an active motion. You have things start on the left and go up to the right. And if you want to show some kind of dynamic movement in your spread, you might consider doing that. That is something about these novelty spreads. Usually the cards are laid out to mimic the shape of the if it's the ice cream sundae spread, then it's supposed to mimic an ice cream sundae in shape, which may have no cogent relationship to the cards and the positions.
U2
Oh, yeah, totally. So can you give us some examples of different ways we could craft a spread?
U1
Oh my goodness, yes, there are ways to do that. Yeah. Okay, so we'll start easy. We'll start with the three card spreads. Visually, you lay them out in a horizontal row. For Americans, we read from left to right, so past, present, future makes perfect sense. Three rows horizontal because that is how we read and so it makes sense to our minds. So now if we're looking at something that's more hierarchical, like a problem at the base, there's a problem at the base of this whole thing. So it's at the bottom. Then how are you going to solve it? Well, the solution goes on top and then the outcome is on the very top. So you start from the bottom and go up from the problem to the solution. It's a visual hierarchy. Another way to do it, a three card spread. You lay the card, the main card, and then you lay a card crossing over. It like in the middle of a Celtic cross. So then you have the situation and then the problem or the crossing energy or whatever. And then you can have a third card that shows the outcome. That helps your brain see there are two things that are interacting and that interaction is going to cause a response. So you have a question and you want the querent in the center. So you have the card representing the querent and their, I don't know, thoughts, feelings, attitudes, right there in the middle. And then 1.2s one of my favorite spreads is a five card spread. So the card in the middle and then one on top, bottom, one on either side. And then you just use the information of the situation and the logic of the past, the present, the foundation, the highest goal. And then you can make them more specific to suit the needs. But then you have all the cards in the proper relation to each other because you have the past, present, future three card spread in that five card cross. Then you have a three card going up. So you can read the cards in all these different ways. Plus you read each card in relation to the center card. 1.5s
U2
Yeah. And looking at it this way opens the spread up to be used in all sorts of ways. And by crafting a spread with lines and movement in mind, you can simply put the cards in specific formation, and you may not even have to label the positions.
U1
I think in general, of course, there are always exceptions. Everybody's different. But yeah, I agree with you. I think the less structure it has to give just enough structure, but not too much. And you said about painting yourself into a corner. Yeah. You don't want to do that. You want the cards to open up a vista for you, not give you a pinhole. And the other thing, too, having very simple or virtually nonexistent positions lets you see how the cards interact with each other even more, which is really where the action should all be happening, is with the cards.
U2
Yes, exactly. You start by assessing the cards, and then if you have a supportive spread, you follow the track. And it's much easier to retrace your steps or integrate the messages from each position, which is so much easier than trying to glean an answer from each position alone. And it combats that pitfall of trying to make the cards say what you want them to say. 1.6s So let's leave the spreads behind really quick and let's go over just simply the patterns themselves. So let's look at the pattern of a vertical line and how our mind interprets that. So if I pull cards in a vertical line straight up and down, the first thing that comes to my mind is energy that is contained to the present moment. And since there's no cards creating a horizontal line from left to right, I'm not looking into the past or future. And since there's no duality, I'm not talking about anyone else or any outside events. I'm only talking about whoever is receiving the reading. And this would be a good spread to use for someone who was asking me about, say, their internal world, like assessing their chakras. 1.3s
U1
And in all those things too, besides being