The Power of Boundaries

Jessica and I explore the complex interplay between boundaries and personal freedom, beginning with an Oracle card pull of "Unfinished Symphony" that sparks reflection on unresolved relationships and life chapters.

• Boundaries create safety and freedom rather than restriction
• True discernment requires honesty with yourself about what you truly want
• Transitioning from "maidenhood" to "mother" energy means choosing yourself first
• Love bombers can only maintain their facade for about six weeks
• The Crone archetype, not the Mother, is the true boundary-setter
• Jupiter in Virgo creates "expansive discernment" - optimistically believing the right person will come
• The ideal heterosexual relationship dynamic: women feel safe while men feel alive
• Disney narratives affect men differently than women, creating unrealistic expectations

Text us to share what "unfinished symphony" is playing in your life or what boundaries you're establishing to create more freedom.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Oracle Card: Unfinished Symphony
• 6:06 Exploring Personal Boundaries
• 12:37 Boundaries as Freedom Not Restriction
• 19:16 Choosing Yourself: From Maiden to Mother
• 30:03 Venus, Jupiter and Relationship Patterns
• 37:03 Maiden, Mother, and Crone Energies

Transcript

Vanessa: 0:05

hello everybody and welcome back jessica.

Vanessa: 0:09

It's so great to see you again and in perpetuity we're back, baby I hope everybody really enjoyed our first episode and the questions that we asked each other. Jessica and I were thinking about how we want to start out these first episodes, to get us more used to this dialogue and slowly get into these topics, so that we're not rushing anything, we're not missing anything. And she had a great idea to start out with Oracle cards. Right, you can hear me shuffling them right now. So we're going to start with an Oracle card and I'm using the Wisdom Oracle deck. It's a pretty popular deck. I'll put it in the notes below, but we're going to see what comes out of it.

Jessica: 0:53

Can I ask a quick question before you pull? What is an Oracle deck? I'm familiar with the Rider-White, only familiar with Tarot deck.

Vanessa: 1:06

Okay, oh, oh, my God, I love this. Okay, the Rider-Waite Rider-Waite-Smith is what we say now, because we want to include Pamela Coleman Smith, who drew the whole thing and who actually drew all of the pit cards. She and Arthur Waite conceptualized the major arcana together, but all the minor arcana she came up with herself. But that is a tarot deck. Yes, an oracle deck is way more free form than that and tends to stay to a track. So wisdom oracle is always trying to provide wisdom. You might get an animal spirit deck. That's an oracle deck and what would your animal spirit say to you? There can be really positive oriented decks and more heartbreak and what is a person thinking of me? And stuff like that. But they're very straightforward.

Vanessa: 1:51

Where tarot decks are based off of symbolism and patterns and weaving a story, oracle cards can easily stand on their own. There's no pattern whatsoever to an oracle deck, got it? Yeah? And so they're really good for these kinds of conversations because they're not locking us into an overly thought out idea. It just keeps us in this larger space in our minds. So we'll start out with this card. I think this is actually perfect and I'd love to hear your thoughts on it. First, unfinished symphonyished symphony. Unfinished symphony.

Jessica: 2:26

Okay, say more.

Vanessa: 2:28

So unfinished symphony is like an unfinished song, something that isn't over, something that plays in your mind over and over again, something you haven't tied up neatly. A lot of us have memories that we wish we could do differently. How many people that you've been with that you wish you'd met later in your life. What unfinished song kind of comes to your mind? If it's many, or if it's an idea, or if it's how we handle unfinished business. And unfinished symphony also can be like a karmic cycle, something that keeps going, keeps happening.

Jessica: 2:57

Unfinished symphony resonates for me in a few ways.

Jessica: 3:02

Currently, most ironically, I was just looking into a temporary change of address oh, wow yeah, because I'm going to be on the west coast longer than I'm comfortable with using my previous address. You know I get a lot of anxiety thinking about what's building up on the east coast. So unfinished symphony. Yeah, definitely.

Jessica: 3:22

Just how open-ended I left my life on the East Coast and all those friendships and how easy it is to abandon relationships for fear of not engaging with them perfectly or being interesting or having anything to offer, because I'm not there to help them, support them or the things you do naturally with FaceTime real FaceTime and then I guess repeating patterns kind of what we touched on last week is those emotional patterns. Just in the moments of quiet as I expand into these new avenues that I want to explore, that's when those patterns kick on and I start to daydream, to fantasize about any cute little love interest and those relationships that I maybe wish I had met later in my life. I lost a lot of incredible people because I wasn't moving in alignment with my words and lost good people. So lately, the isolation that is the West Coast like being at the beginning and starting a new symphony I think a lot about the people and the place that I left on the East Coast.

Vanessa: 4:32

I love that Visceral feeling.

Jessica: 4:34

Yeah, real big rocks in my belly. But what about you?

Vanessa: 4:38

I think for me it's that I'm close to turning 40. I'll be 40 at the end of September, that I'm close to turning 40. I'll be 40 at the end of September, and there's so much in my life that I haven't realized yet that it almost feels like an unfinished symphony because it's just not done yet. It feels like it's gone on and on and I'm ready for that new chapter. I'm ready to change the script or move on to a new set of problems, but this is where I am, and I think it's also being able to accept where I am in that unfinished space, being able to say that it's not necessarily a statement on who I am, but more so, just divine timing. But now, hindsight's, 2020, right.

Vanessa: 5:18

I can say I wish that this had happened earlier. I wish that things had moved for me earlier, but I don't know if I would be so ready for things to move in a direction I've been wanting to see them move in. I think if they happened five years ago, I wouldn't have been able to handle them the way that I could handle them now, like I wouldn't have been able to handle a relationship the way that I could probably handle one now, or the Aquarian, the way that I could handle the Aquarian now. Well, it feels like unfinished symphony for me, in the sense that everything feels like it's still teeming in this area that I wish would move on or move forward. I don't think that's a bad thing. I think that it's something that needed to happen and hopefully it'll move forward sooner than later, because it would be great to have new scenery. But this is just reminding me that where you are is where you are. What's the saying? Oh, this is going with you. If you pick up and move somewhere else, you're still there when you land.

Jessica: 6:12

Yeah, you're you forever.

Vanessa: 6:15

Exactly so, embracing the fact that I may not have everything that I could imagine in my mind that I would want or the experiences that I would want, but I'm a pretty blessed person and I do feel very grateful for wearing it. So, even in that long song, what are we talking about?

Jessica: 6:34

The Aquarian is the symphony. I know it's basically what I'm saying. We got brass, we got wind, we got songs, we're cooking. Yeah, all right, but it's unfinished and that's fun. Feel free to text us right in. Let us know whether or not you enjoy the journey.

Vanessa: 6:55

Oh yeah, and if there's any unfinished business that you're thinking about in your life, maybe text that to us or let us know how you what unfinished symphony is going on for you.

Jessica: 7:04

Yeah, please Gosh, it's so much more fun to think to us or let us know how you, what unfinished symphony is going on for you. Yeah, please gosh, it's so much more fun to think about other people. So last week we were just saying hello, asking some questions, getting in touch and in tune with one another, and I think we touched on something. You asked me a question and I responded with something that you summarized as a boundary, and it was a poignant thing to land on and I want to expand on it today. If we could just talk about boundaries yeah, what that means, what that looks like, how, how can? Because it sounds like Boundaries sound like to me, it sounds like a restriction, but as I'm experiencing boundaries, as I learn to place them, I learn to say no. It actually is surprisingly expansive. It gives you more freedom. It's almost like bumpers. It gives you a space to work within that feels safer, but more expansive.

Vanessa: 8:08

So a boundary for you is both limiting and freeing. That's amazing, because it is. It's, I think, at its essence. A boundary is recognizing that you're a unique person and that you're not just what anybody would expect. You need things that are different than what other people need. You have places in your life where you won't let people cross. If you let them cross, it'll just hurt. You have expectations of yourself in terms of your routine and in terms of your daily life, and I think that a lot of people find boundaries needlessly weed people out. Right, if I have too many boundaries? And how is any anybody going to be right for me If I have too many boundaries? How do I know that I'm not just really pushing somebody away or saying that they can't meet me eventually? Why can't I give more people a shot? And I think that's where, like, the disconnect of boundaries is.

Vanessa: 9:06

There are certain things that you probably had happen to you enough times that you didn't like that you could probably put on a boundary Like for me personally, I really need a kind of routine and I need someone who is either really good in silence or can engage me in conversation. That I want to have. If these things do not happen in a relationship. I have found myself more and more diminished in that relationship, and I don't have to ask myself that question anymore. I don't have to ask myself oh well, how do you know if the person that you fall in love with can't talk to you the way you want to? Because I've done it enough times, I've done it enough times and I don't like it, period. So, instead of looking at it like a boundary of I only date no people with brown hair, or even just putting it into a sexual realm, which a lot of people need to do, what is your amount of days before you become intimate, or what is intimacy for you?

Vanessa: 10:06

Where are the boundaries of intimacy for you? Where have you hurt at moments where you have not allowed those boundaries to stay strong? And those are probably places that you're not eventually, someday going to feel good about, you know. So I think that the difference not everything needs a boundary A lot of things you don't even know about yourself until you do start dating someone. When you start dating someone, you start learning things about yourself. You start learning triggers in yourself, you start learning your threshold for pain, your threshold for manipulation and isolation, and you start seeing how your humor lights up in different ways. You start seeing all these things come out of you that if you had boundaries for absolutely everything. It's more about control than it is about. I've had this pain enough times. I don't need to learn this pain again. If this person wants to push past my boundaries, I'm likely going to end up in the same painful place as I was before.

Jessica: 11:03

Oh, my goodness. Yes, it can be a double edged sword too, right, jessica? To the point, okay. So recently there was a full moon and during this time I did two rituals. I did a full moon abundance of prayer. There was honey involved. I just let go of things that I wanted to leave behind and I called in abundance and a life I truly desired. I just meditated on that and then shortly thereafter I think it was the next day, I think it was all on this full moon and I did a ritualistic severance of maidenhood and I stepped into the mother. I decided to revoke the parts of me that chose to please others before myself, meet others' needs before my own, and that desire to be chosen or to be saved or to be allowed. And I chose to step into the mother and the power and ability to create, almost immediately stepping into this energy lover's interest, was coming my way. Traditionally, that's where I would just defer to the other and allow them to become my higher power. Tell me what I need to do. So while I immediately allowed all that energy in and I said okay, yeah, I very quickly learned okay, this doesn't work for me. This doesn't align with this new intentional energy that I am trying to call in. So this is my tea for the week.

Jessica: 12:39

Someone walked in to my place of work and, stars in his eyes and, grinning ear to ear, asked me if he could take me out to dinner and I said okay and invited him over to watch Lord of the Rings. He showed up wasted and I didn't realize it because I thought maybe he was just nervous and I had to make a boundary, that for my own sobriety I just couldn't go here. No harm, no foul Party on Wayne. But I had to say no, I don't want a relationship beyond you, come into the bar, I'll be professional. And so I sent him away and then I got the subsequent texts in 645 in the morning, where he was reeling because he fumbled the bag in a way that he could probably have never anticipated.

Jessica: 13:33

And I'm curious. The themes that I'm picking up is how, when we're operating from that place of the maiden and like wanting to be chosen, wanting to be saved, wanting to be guided, what can we look for within ourselves as guideposts into integrity, into the mother, choosing your own power and your own ability and allowing others in and opening up and softening, while remaining fortified?

Vanessa: 14:10

Yeah, yeah, being soft yet also strong, connected, but also enough detached that you aren't enmeshing immediately. I think it goes along with manifestation. You first have to know what you want, right, so you may be in a different place in your life when it comes to relationships. Maybe you don't want something that's too solid because you're not sure where you're gonna be in a month, so that would change what you're wanting from someone. I'm not gonna speak from the level of being able to tell if someone's a narcissist or somebody who's like barreling past your boundaries. I would say that if you are being pressured into anything, that is already just a red flag. There's no question about that. So we're going to go a little lower than that, to where you are, which is this guy liked you. He obviously fumbled the bag. He may not be a bad guy, but he obviously did do this in a way that especially did not work for you, since you are sober yeah, there was no true violation.

Jessica: 15:20

He was devastated, he left you know.

Vanessa: 15:22

So you start with what you want and then it shapes the boundary right. So if you wanted something that was intimate without commitment, then your intuition isn't going to be on its radar for fast moving intimacy as a problem or a red flag right, because you've already told it that what you want is to bypass certain steps that take a little bit longer, like emotional security, knowing more about each other, understanding the compatibility, understanding the chemistry. That doesn't require the person to be in your home, which is a big boundary. That, right there it's the witch's boundary, is the home. That's why they have crystals in certain areas of their doorframes, because they won't let certain people come across that boundary. Yeah, so that's the first thing you have to ask yourself, and then you have to ask if you're being honest with yourself. With yourself, you might not be as honest with yourself as you think you are, because you might be in a place where you're learning something. So I would say that if you find yourself in a situation where you're like, ah, why didn't I know that, why didn't I see that, it's likely because you've got to keep putting your hand on the stove to really tell that it's hot, and that's what really builds the intuition, because intuition is different than psychic. Intuition is very much built by what you've been exposed to and what you've learned. And things speed up because oh, you've seen this before Some people are much more comfortable with living in that recognition that a lot of things are not said to you.

Vanessa: 17:14

A lot of what you're physically seeing is probably 10% of what's happening. There's a million things that could be going on, but they're only presenting a certain side of themselves. Or for him it was a a very bad side, but some people are an ambassador and so you can't really tell what's going on inside of that head or inside of the emotion. So being honest with yourself makes it easier for you to be intuitive, because you're standing still inside of your boundaries, right Like a container, and watching someone kind of circle the cage and if you want to let that person in and you watch, you say you know what?

Vanessa: 17:57

One of my boundaries is, that I don't necessarily have a boundary of somebody being sober. But how much do you drink? When do you drink? Do you have a reason why you drink? Because there's plenty of people who have a why to why they drink. There's a reason.

Vanessa: 18:11

What is your relationship to being intoxicated, but that requires a conversation and that requires you being vulnerable to the idea that this person may not respond to you the way that you want to be responded to.

Vanessa: 18:25

That's the vulnerability of it.

Vanessa: 18:28

So holding your boundaries is being vulnerable because you're saying that this is something I need that you may not be able to provide me and you might even see it as being high maintenance or overly vigilant or too much of a drag, too much of a boring person, which is that Venus, sagittarius and last thing I'll say is the spell that you did was on the strawberry moon, because the last full moon we have was Sagittarius and that conjuncts your Venus.

Vanessa: 18:55

That didn't trine your moon, but it's in a trining sign to your moon. You called someone in, but the moon is where you're uncomfortable or where you have fluctuating feelings, where you feel prickly. So it was somebody who met you in a more intimate way in the home right Cause that's the moon too, in the home. But you also had to look at what you needed and what makes you feel safe with somebody, and you stuck by that, even when you could have overridden that, maybe gone a bit dissociative and chopped it up to something that you don't have to remember, but why even do anything that you don't want to remember?

Jessica: 19:34

Absolutely agreed. It also felt symbolically in that moment. You know what? I don't need to be chosen. I've spent a lot of time entertaining someone simply to be chosen, and that's why it's so vulnerable?

Vanessa: 19:56

because you may not be chosen. And not only may you not be chosen, it may be because you said you're not what I'm looking for. And that's scary too, because how is that person going to respond? How is that person going to see you now and you and I both come from families that are pretty broken and anybody coming into your life that could relieve you of the deep loneliness not necessarily the topical feelings of being fine by yourself or being able to move through the world content with your own company.

Vanessa: 20:32

I'm talking about the connection loneliness of something that I don't think either of us maybe feels naturally, unless we are around someone we feel connected to. And so when somebody comes in and offers that connection, it's hard to say no to that. It's hard to push that away because it feels more alive, Like you feel more in connection to your body, in connection to even earth, even everything. You just feel like I don't have to be Jessica. I get to be a wanted, pleasuring, pleasured creature and I don't have to worry about all the ways that I don't think Jessica lives up.

Jessica: 21:15

How do you think love, bombing and boundaries play together?

Vanessa: 21:22

Love bombers tell you everything you've ever wanted to hear and they do everything for you that you've ever wanted to have done. And they don't get everybody, because not everybody responds to the way that they love bomb just like a scammer. They're not going to get everybody, they have to fish. So really good narcissists and really good love bombers will figure out what you want on the fly. They don't have a script in their head. They don't have a way that they want to love you have a way that they want to love you. They just want you connected and then they need to make you feel like you're the person who's screwing it up, so that you are constantly trying to prove yourself to them, so that you're not seeing what the real problem is.

Vanessa: 21:55

So the first six weeks they can keep this up. If you feel like someone's bum rushing you, you feel like they're going too fast, I would give it at least eight weeks, because Because around six weeks is when they start to falter. So anybody who's walking into something even if the person saw you across the room was like that's the person I'm going to marry they're going to be a little scared, they're going to be a little nervous. Listen, give me eight weeks, okay.

Jessica: 22:22

Yes, as they should be.

Vanessa: 22:24

Yeah, and if they aren't ready then they probably won't step forward. Okay, or they'll jump in for three or four dates just to squeeze the life out of whatever's going on and then jump back out, because at the end of the day, they know they don't have what you need. They know they can't give that to you, they know it, but it doesn't mean that they don't want to be intimate.

Jessica: 22:48

Yeah, instant gratification, give me everything right now. Wait, okay, and not to make this all about me, let's expand. Is there something in our charts? My hunch is that it's a Venus that would maybe sabotage or inherently challenge, activate this kind of self-possession. I'm just wondering where can we find that authority that's very interesting.

Vanessa: 23:11

You say that because I just finished the written astrological reading that I do. I have live readings where you will get this written report and then we'll talk more deeply about your chart outside of that written report, but then I also have just a written report that literally answers these questions. I'm glad that you brought it up because I'm going to be doing them also for careers, spirituality and the future. But there's a lot. There's a lot. It's not just your Venus, it's, you know, your Venus, the aspects to your Venus, the ruler of Venus, the ruler of your seventh house, within your seventh house. What's in your 12th house? That's karmic, right? What's your moon? Your moon is what you feel comfortable with, what makes you feel emotionally bonded, what makes you feel safe? How are your Venus and your Mars interacting with each other? So there's all sorts of things that go into why this happens or why you are in a loop that you find yourself in.

Vanessa: 24:05

Your Venus is in Sagittarius, in the seventh house. That means that you are attracted to which is Venus? I am attracted to relationships, period. The seventh house is relationships. It doesn't always have to be a romantic relationship, but when it's Venus, it's gonna be a romantic relationship. If Venus is in the seventh house, you are gonna find yourself in limerence or continuously thinking about or being drawn to someone. It doesn't necessarily have to be the love of your life, it's just someone. But then on top of that, it's in Sagittarius, and then your seventh house is also the cusp of Sagittarius. It's not always that way. That means that it's ruled by Jupiter. Both of them are ruled by Jupiter. Do you remember where your Jupiter is? Is it in Virgo?

Jessica: 24:53

Yes.

Vanessa: 24:55

It is. That also is very expansive. That makes your seventh house a firehouse too, because it's Sagittarius. So you're going to feel all of this desire towards people, this desire to expand yourself with people, to learn more about yourself with people. Then also, your moon in Leo trines your seventh house as well, meaning you feel safe in relationships. So, even though you might not feel safe in the relationships you've created in your dynamic, you want to be in one because it brings out a sense of safety in you, right? Doesn't mean that all of your relationships have been great. It means that there is a sense that you will be eventually in some way safe or you will create safety for them, right? So there's this easy flow with the way that you want to be, the way you want to feel emotionally, what you want to give to someone emotionally. So then also, jupiter is in Virgo. That squares your Venus and that's the squaring sign to your descendant, which is the point of the seventh house, and that expands everything in a way that can be really superficial.

Vanessa: 26:02

It can make things almost too indulgent, too steeped in optimism as well. There's a lot of optimism, but it's like how would that work? How would that work, how would that even work? So it's almost like when you imagine about somebody and you said this before, but this definitely affirms this you expand your mind around them, you expand your optimism around them, even if they show red flags. You're like, oh, but you know what? I don't see it like that. I don't see people like that. I think everybody is a blank slate. Everyone deserves a chance. No, they don't. No, no, they don't.

Vanessa: 26:44

Sagittarius has a hard time discerning when Virgo is a discerner. Sagittarius is a welcome, but it's about you getting honest with yourself about where that indulgence starts. Does it start on that first night? Do they get all of you right away? Is that because you long for connection or is it because they genuinely deserved it? Are they the ones that are making you feel safe or are you the one making them feel safe? And I want every woman, please. I want this to spread across the world.

Vanessa: 27:24

Keep this in your mind the only relationship that you ever want with a man is where you feel safe and they feel alive. If you are trying to make them feel safe, it's because you feel alive. And when they feel safe, they start to feel like they have no chemistry with you, that things aren't going the way they have imagined or hoped for, right. So I know that's a broad statement, but what happens is when a woman starts to chase after a man or starts to think about a man, that doesn't mean that there's not attraction and excitement, but you lose your life around this person. It's because they're making you feel alive, and the only way to keep them is to make them feel safe in your mind that I'm not their ex, I'm not the women that they've dated, I'm not any of these other things. So I'm going to make you feel as safe as possible, because then you're going to make me feel safe and I'll stop feeling this way, I'll stop being so overwhelmed like this. And now they're completely safe because you think that there's something to prove.

Jessica: 28:31

There's nothing to prove they might not be the right guy for you. I feel like this brings us all the way back to the beginning of meeting your own needs and security and safety before entering into a relationship. Not that you need to be perfect or fully cooked.

Vanessa: 28:43

Yeah, that's why you do that. You're combating an issue of not being able to access your aliveness. Without another person, there might be a sense of wanting to unite with someone. Why, then, also put yourself through what you think you should be doing for another person, and it doesn't matter to them at all. I'll give you one other thing.

Vanessa: 29:07

I heard this on a video by a guy named Stephen A. He said something that also completely changed my perspective of men and women in the way that they ignite each other. And he said that we all think that women were affected by Disney movies, right, we all think that women were the ones who were the most. I'm the princess and I should be in love and I'm going to find my prince charming, right? And he said you know who it really affected? It affected men because, yes, it affected men because, yes, because, because women will give anybody a chance.

Vanessa: 29:43

Men have this thing in their head that if you are not absolutely 100% the one, if I don't see you and see you as Ariel, or see you as Belle, or see you as this specific person, either that I have in my mind or that I'm going to feel intuitively, or that I see across the room, then I'm in it for just a second.

Vanessa: 30:03

I'm not in it forever or I'm going to back away. So we have this as women I'm going to find my Prince Charming it could be any of you and men have a tendency obviously not all men, but men have a tendency to hone in on only a person that they feel is completely like this one princess, and I think that's something everybody grows out of, sure, but this is where we're caught, I think. So I don't want to speak for a community that I'm not a part of, but in the heterosexual cis world, I think that a lot of women beat themselves up for not being Belle or for not being a princess, and they don't recognize that they are allowing way too many toads into their life that make that treat them like they aren't a princess. Oh, you are. That doesn't take that away from you. I'm just saying that we are caught in these Disney dynamics, but we happen to think that we are the ones who are like I'm going to find my one Prince Charming, but we are letting anybody sign up for the job.

Vanessa: 31:03

And we just keep creating dragons for the applicants you are giving so much power so much affirmation to somebody who really didn't do anything for you, or somebody who stole it and ran away, or somebody who kept you as a placeholder, someone who tried to control you. You're just giving you this power, this feminine power, like you said, this maiden power to another, to a well, to a man. That's what I'm talking about, as heterosexual, to a man who didn't genuinely show you he should have walked past the threshold. Yeah, and I also don't want to speak for men too much because I am a woman. This is just little. Didn't genuinely show you he should have walked past the threshold, yeah, and I also don't want to speak for men too much because I am a woman. This is just little things that I've heard along the way and from men. That I think is very interesting. But I just wanted to throw that in there, because I think sometimes we have this idea that, oh, if they just acted better, if they just did that, what's your boundary, girl? What's the boundary?

Jessica: 31:55

Where's the gate? Okay, girl. What's the boundary? Where's the gate? Okay, where's the gate? Modern contemporary society has painted this picture. That maidenhood is this youth, this vitality, this invigorating spice that, if you choose to let it go like there's women out here, there are people older than me, mice, who are supposed to be my elder, who are still embodying this maidenhood, this almost regressive, stunted mentality. And mother has been painted as simply a mom, when she's so much more than that. It's just building the fence, choosing where the gate is, building the house, planting the garden, the power and the ability to create and that inherent integrity, and it just it feels like these disney dynamics that you're talking about tie up so neatly that maiden, that pretty little pink bow and that maiden's hair. You know, what's also interesting is you think that the mother is bow and that maiden's hair.

Vanessa: 32:59

You know, what's also interesting is you think that the mother is the boundary. It's really the crone, it's the old woman in you, it's the wise one, yeah, it's the one. Because the mother has to have sex. To have a child, the mother has to be sexual, they have to be alluring, they have to feel feminine. There's no boundary there because you're giving birth. That's why people are coming to you. It's the crone, it's the place in you that, yeah, it's the place in you that's saying you know what?

Vanessa: 33:26

Me, at 70, do I want this, if I look at this from less of a intimate sexual childbearing place where I am ready for my full abundance or ready to experience all this, ready to bring everything to my life, because that's what it is Mother brings all of it in. There is no boundary. There's no boundary between you and your child either. So the boundary really is when the crone comes in, because the crone is only there for the protection of the women. That's it. It's not the sex drive anymore, it's not the milestones anymore, it's not the expectations anymore. It's this higher self that's protecting you.

Jessica: 34:05

Okay, so if mother is the boundary, then in order to find the embodiment I could lean into my Jupiter, that, that integrity, that discernment, in order to build the boundary because here's my electric fence that I keep running into is, without discernment, I allow any applicant, any disney prince, to come slay my dragon, when really the dragon's not causing me any problems, we're fine. But I keep plenty of people on my property to come and kill it, so I leave the up. In here I'm sacrificing my babies, but I don't need to. So, without discernment, I'm allowing any candidate to cross the threshold and that I keep hitting this wall where I realize that they're looking at me with a certain energy, almost as though they want to move me into mother, move me into reproduction. I feel like a breeding animal. Suddenly, I feel as though I'm being watched, but I'm not being seen. And who is this person who's looking at me? And so discernment, I think, is the key that we're looking for.

Vanessa: 35:26

Yeah, and that comes from the crumb, because the mother doesn't have boundaries and there's nothing wrong with that. The maiden is the naive one. The maiden is the one who's open hearted, who thinks everyone's a good person, who thinks that they're going to walk through life and people are going to see their shine and they're going to see everyone else's shine, and it's a more open experience. And then the mother is the one who has to care for everything, has to nurture everything, is called upon to be gracious and compassionate and understanding and patient, and a lot of that is difficult for anybody, but especially for someone who's stuck between maiden and mother, because maiden doesn't want to care for anything, wants to stay carefree, right. So in order to protect both of those, you have to cultivate and call on the crone, because neither of them should have to stop being what they are. Why not call on the wiser one?

Vanessa: 36:15

The womb is no longer active. It's no longer being tricked and overrun by a person's desire, by a person's wants, by the idea of what their life could be, by the lumerance of it. All. Right, it's much more sober. So that is the discernment that you're looking for and, if you want to call it the Jupiter Virgo. It's expansive discernment, then it's an optimistic discernment. It's like I'll meet a person who's right for me. I don't have to worry about the fact that I can say no. I don't have to, because the more I say no, the more the universe is going to call in what's right for me.

Jessica: 37:03

The less I say no, the more the universe is just going to throw everything at me. And it's not all. For me, it could be any creative endeavor I'm thinking about when I want to write. I can't write, the writing wants me and I get used, I get filled and I have to birth, and it's the creative flow, is the mother.

Jessica: 37:17

Yeah, it's not like that. Power and ability I have is outside of my control. I have to avail myself to it. I have to be a channel. I have to. There is no boundary. You're so right.

Vanessa: 37:29

There's no boundary and there shouldn't be. That's why you want to cultivate the crone. But in our society we've been taught that old is bad. You're taught that it's all about aesthetic. Everything is about beauty and we don't see the beauty in everything. And there's so much beauty in the crone because the crone is not tricked by anything. But if you don't cultivate the crone, or at least turn to the crone, or that's that intuition that no of this is gonna end well, that's probably the crone, right.

Jessica: 38:00

And the crone doesn't even have to be old, it's simply experience. Just like you can't edit a blank page, the crone comes in after the fact.

Vanessa: 38:08

The wisdom be the container yeah, I just say old because logically it comes after well chronologically, but also biologically, because after a certain amount of time the mother is no longer in need of reproduction and it's able to sit on a front porch in a rocking chair and not wonder about all the things that could have been. It's accepting that age is a beautiful thing, or getting older is a beautiful thing. It's just that there's a different function there. You know, we're all gonna get there. That's definitely not a negative thing. It's not those children that people say they're wise beyond their years. I would imagine they probably have access to the crone in them much sooner than us, because they don't care as much about what the outside world thinks the crone has already gone through all of that right. They don't care as much about the allegiances that they have or how much people like them, how many rewards they've gotten, because they know that the end of the story is that they were handling their life in a way that they could see it so much further than we can see it right now. They're like I want to get to this place in my life where I feel connected to all that I've done. So I'm going to jump over this part of naivete, at least in terms of romance, let's say Naivete and abundance, which is also something that they can suffer from, is that they didn't experience the maiden or the mother, but they're still old souls because they're able to see through things. They're able to communicate without being tied down to some social expectation or some fear of not being accepted.

Vanessa: 39:41

And that's the crone. She doesn't care. She doesn't care at all because she's been through it, she's done it, and you can't get her for nothing. She doesn't need anything from you. That's age. You've seen it all, you've done it all. You aren't overcome by things in ways that you were. But what I would say is that not every person who is older does access their crumb. They could still be stuck in the maiden or they could still be stuck in the mother if they're constantly caretaking, if they can't stop doing that, or they can't even access where they are in their own life.

Jessica: 40:12

I'm so curious if there's any applicable metaphor to apply to the male experience. If they have that I'm sure they do. I'm curious what it is?

Vanessa: 40:26

I don't think so. Actually, I think that when we talk about the masculine in mythology, there was a period of time back when, like the gods and goddesses of olympus, like a really long time ago, and there were a lot of stories of men killing goddesses, and this was when they were killing all of the temples, they were destroying all of the more feminine rituals and rites and places, and so they began a narrative that a man can overcome a god or a goddess, and so men have been looked at more as human. Even in the tarot, when you're looking at the major arcana and you see the empress and the emperor, the empress stands for Venus, while the emperor stands for Aries. One is a planet and one is a zodiac. One is an archetype of a feminine ideal or a feminine way, and the other one is a personality of conquering and putting one's own interests first. So that's a more human mask than Venus, which is just abundance and, you know, offering and creativity, and both of them are archetypes. It's just interesting that one is hooked to a planet while the other is hooked to a personality of a zodiac.

Vanessa: 41:35

Or there's books that I really do want to read, to look into that more, but it is that we started out as a matrilineal society. We've never been a matriarchy, but we have matrilineal societies and that's how it all started. So it was all torn down by different cultures of a man defeating these larger beings. I hope you enjoyed this week's episode. Please check your weekly emails for any new. I hope you enjoyed this week's episode. Please check your weekly emails for any new offerings and giveaways. And until next week, blessed be.